Transcript 0:00 Join us to get exclusive and rare access to some of the industry's best leaders. Leaders who will share all their secrets to success with you. 0:08 Leaders who have closed thousands of successful deals between them, generating hundreds of billions of dollars. Leaders giving you the roadmap to fast-track your career and reach the highest echelons of the business. 0:20 So welcome to series two of the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast, and best of luck on your growth journey. I'm Pete Nieberg, your host of the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast and the global head at Outram. 0:32 And before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask of you. Just over twenty percent of our listeners subscribe to the show, and our goal in series two is to increase that to forty percent. 0:43 So if you've ever liked any of our episodes, our content, please hit subscribe. 0:49 It helps this channel more than you can know, and the bigger the channel gets, the more high-profile leaders we can collaborate with to help you further on your journey. So thank you for the support. 0:59 We also appreciate that you're really busy, and based on series one feedback, we've added timestamps to all of our video content, making it much easier for you to access topics to get your help quickly. 1:11 So enjoy the episode. So I'm excited to introduce today's guest to you all. I'm here with Armin Hueberger, managing director and head of ECM for Germany and Austria, and equity-linked in EMEA. 1:24 He's based out of Frankfurt, and Armin has over twenty-five years of investment banking experience. 1:30 He's an exceptional originator and an expert in global capital markets, equity linked capital markets, and corporate equity derivatives. But he's also worked on numerous public M&A transactions and spin-offs as well. 1:44 So a ton of great knowledge for us all today. Armin started his career in the late nineties with Merrill Lynch in New York at the height of the IPO boom, and he later transferred to London. 1:55 And throughout the first six years of his career, he built out his skills across equity syndicate, corporate finance, equity-linked products, derivatives, and M&A. 2:06 And this really helped him become a lot more knowledgeable and of course, versatile. 2:10 After that, he took a position as an associate at Lehman before teaming up with a former colleague to build out the equity linked capital markets practice at Morgan Stanley here in London. 2:22 And over those two and a half years at MS, Armin and the team had enormous success in this space, won awards and gained a ton of, uh, good attention. 2:31 And it was that attention, uh, that led to Armin moving to UBS in late two thousand and nine as an MD. 2:39 And across those fifteen years at UBS, he's grown to the head of ECM for Germany and Austria and equity linked products in EMEA. 2:47 As well as that, when he moved to Frankfurt back in two thousand and fourteen, he added a coverage role to his existing products roles as well. 2:54 So having got to know Armin, he's a big believer in creating your own career by taking chances to build your skills and become more versatile in the industry, and also, uh, grasping those opportunities that are available. 3:08 So he's really enthusiastic about shining a light on investment banking and supporting you all to grow and develop. So as always, a perfect guest for us on the show. 3:17 So Armin, welcome to the Investment Banking Leaders podcast, and thanks for joining us today. Thanks, Pete. Pleasure to be here with you. Excellent. Looking forward to a good discussion. Yeah. Me too. Me too. 3:28 This is gonna be a fun one. So why don't you just start with introducing a bit about what you do for your clients to our listeners? Yeah, sure. 3:35 In a summary, it's really advice on all private and public capital raisings, which includes, say, private placements, equity structure, equity structured debt or private debt on the private side. 3:46 And on the public side, it, it is things like IPOs, capital raises, accelerated placements, as well as you mentioned before, public M&A transactions. Excellent. 3:54 I think that's in a nutshell, sort of covers what I do for our, for our clients. Super. 4:01 And I'm always interested when I speak to leaders, successful leaders with such longevity in the industry to learn, how did you end up in investment banking? Well, for me, that's a bit of an odd one. 4:11 I think that in Germany you get sort of a, a general education, and you don't really know what you need to... what you wanna do. Germany, there's what's called an apprenticeship system. 4:19 Uh, so I said I didn't know anything better, so I went to a bank and did a bank apprenticeship. That was in the early nineties at Deutsche Bank, actually, when they weren't really an investment bank yet. 4:29 They were a commercial bank only at the time. And these apprenticeships are typically a way where you rotate through all different departments. 4:35 And so you go from the post office to the credit department, to being at the counter to sell insurance products and whatnot. 4:44 And I also ended up in private banking, where I had the pleasure to meet, uh, a manager of a golf professional, and I played cards with him in one of the client events. 4:54 And he said, "So what do you wanna do after your apprenticeship?" I said, "Look, I really have no idea." 5:00 [chuckles] So I still didn't have any ideas what I wanted to do, but I sort of liked what I was doing there in private banking, and he said, "Well, maybe you wanna try this investment banking." 5:08 And I, I hadn't really heard about it, to be quite frank with you at that time. [chuckles] And I said, "Okay, that sounds interesting. What would you recommend to do that?" 5:15 And he said, "I think you really should train in New York to do that." And then I figured, okay, fine. I, I marked that and see what comes up. 5:22 I then had decided to study actually i-in US and in finance, uh, met some guy who worked on Wall Street, and there I then did some internships in, in New York at Salomon. 5:32 Morgan Stanley just had bought Dean Witter, so I worked at Morgan Stanley Dean Witter as an intern, and so I got more exposure there. 5:40 And well, then I applied, and then I got accepted by Merrill Lynch, and the rest is history, as they say. So that's how I ended up in investment banking in the first place. Nice. Nice journey. 5:48 I've heard a few journeys from successful leaders, not one that includes agent of a pro golfer, so it's certainly a, a new one, but great story. 5:55 And before [chuckles] we get into the real meat of today's discussion, why don't you just tell the listeners one thing they can't find anywhere about you or something unknown, something unexpected. 6:04 I'm not sure whether it's unexpected, but I love the mountains. I actually like, uh, to be in the mountains in the summer and in winter. I like in the winter skiing, summer mountain biking and, and hiking. 6:12 Well, it's probably a mixture of just theGreat air and the astonishing beauty and, and how, how, how you find yourself very small in that environment. 6:21 So that's something you probably don't find on-online on me, that I do enjoy that. Nice. No good mountain lando-landscape pictures on social media. [chuckles] I'm, I'm a big fan of the mountain as well. 6:30 I think, uh, mindfulness- Exactly. [chuckles] Mi-mindfulness for me is important, and getting out into that mountain really helps me with that, so I can appreciate that. Yeah. 6:38 Investment banking, it's all about deal-making. Without successful deals, there is no investment banking. So having closed so many deals over your career, what are the keys to having success? 6:49 I would say probably the three things I would highlight, I think it starts, in my view, with the clients, and that is, I think, also applicable, not just investment banking, but I think it's the sales, it's, it's getting, it's getting really the mandates, and therefore, I think you need to, you need to understand the clients. 7:05 Uh, I think investment banking as it, in my view, remains a people's business, is therefore the trust that you hopefully gain with your clients, and that I think it's key, in my opinion, to originate a deal. 7:16 You then also have to build upon that, i.e., with very good execution. I think some people often say execution takes care of itself. I believe in the contrary. 7:26 I think a, a very good execution breeds then success for maybe the next transaction and next deal, but also im-implicitly means you're gaining the trust even more with your client, and therefore, hopefully, getting also the next transaction with your client. 7:41 So I think that's probably one of the, the key, uh, ingredients, getting these and experiences under your belt to then have a virtuous loop to get really close to your, in my view, on that side of the, uh, investment banking, let's say, issuing clients or people who hire you for an M&A transaction. 7:59 I think the second important element is experience, because I think there's only so many things you can learn from a technical side of things, but every transaction is different in nuances. 8:11 It's different across products. It's different across sectors. It's different across industries. But more importantly, it's also different in the very environment you're in at the time. 8:21 So I think there experience, 'cause I think, uh, processes are very similar, but key decision points in these processes that require judgment, I think that's what you are hired for as investment banker from a client, and to come to the right judgments at the right time are quite important. 8:39 And I don't think that is something you can learn by reading or by someone telling you. 8:43 You can only gain that ability by having that experience, and that leads into that judgment element that I think, uh, is the third key ingredient in my opinion. Yeah. Thanks for that, and I think you're right. 8:55 We hear a lot about investment banking being the apprenticeship and having to do the reps and gain the experience to progress, uh, and become an expert. 9:03 Clients make sense, you know, understanding your clients well, understanding their needs and building trust, as you mentioned. 9:10 The execution one is interesting because it's not one that typically comes up, uh, when I ask this question. 9:15 So you, you said it doesn't take care of itself, and actually great execution leads to potential of more transactions. I wanna sit there a little bit. Is there anything you can share around what makes great execution? 9:27 Yeah. 9:27 I think that why people say execution takes care of itself is because you obviously have established process of the various products and transactions, and that's maybe true, uh, for eighty, ninety percent of any given transaction, and that's why people feel that it can go on autopilot, and then it takes care of itself. 9:45 I think there is probably a lot of, uh, technology that now can be used for just the processes, but what I mentioned before, because every situation where you put this process into place is different for various reasons. 9:59 And it's then these extra twenty percent that change from deal to deal, and it's where you can't say execution will take care of itself, and I think that's what makes or breaks that transaction. 10:10 And there I'm n- I'm just not only talking about whether it's successful or not, but it's also how the client perceives that successful transaction, i.e., was it a, a good experience all along? Was it too hectic? 10:24 Was it too ad hoc? And that I think is what I mean when I say execution doesn't take care of itself, but it needs actually quite a bit of attention. 10:34 There's a different skill set, in my opinion, to excel there, but nevertheless, I think it's very important to also focus on execution. Uh, frankly, also senior attention on execution. 10:44 Thanks for sharing that, and it makes sense, and I, it, I can relate to that, servicing the investment banking industry and knowing that we focus a lot on smooth service and how that breeds trust and, and a relationship, a future relationship is key. 10:56 Having spoken to you, I mentioned it in the introduction, a theme throughout your career, finding opportunities to become more versatile, to build your skills. 11:05 So I just want you to talk to me a bit about why you feel that's so important in the industry. 11:10 I think it's important for both yourself as you develop your career, but also the place you work, because I think you're gonna be able to build out more the two and three of the keys I mentioned before, i.e., you get a broader set of experiences, but you also in doing so, you get a, a better, better judgment in terms of the very specific situation you are in, be it on the origination but also on the execution side. 11:39 So if you think about a picture, it's not a sprint, but I think it's more a marathon like any career is. It, it's probably a metaphor that's been used to death, but I, I really believe in it. 11:50 And the way I see it, the versatility is that you gain exposure and hence experience in all facets of investment banking, because it's pretty clear that depending on the M&A transaction, depending on the capital raise, depending on the debt raise, depending on perhaps the client, whether it's a corporate, whether it's a private equity firm, these products actually often are combined and-You can't be good in the one if you have no clue about the other element of a transaction, because sometimes it's maybe eighty percent M&A and twenty percent something else. 12:27 Sometimes it's fifty/fifty, and of course, you have specialists for the various fields, but if you don't have an understanding of what your partner does in that other department, I think it's a bit more difficult to really excel over the long run. 12:41 That makes complete sense. 12:43 A-and it's interesting 'cause I'm thinking back to an interview I had with Scott Wheeler, the chairman at DC Advisory, and he talked a lot about judgment bank, building a judgment bank, and that's really in line with what you're describing. 12:55 And I'm sure that connects with a lot of our listeners today, but could you share a bit about how you go about getting more exposure to these, or your recommendations for getting exposure to new products and new investment banking areas? 13:08 For the people who are at the beginning of their careers, the reason why, uh, I think this versatility helps not just obviously them to be a more productive and effective banker for the company they work for. 13:21 I think it's also from their own perspective, uh, own skill set and making themselves more valuable, I think important. And the way to approach it, one is an indirect one. 13:31 So if you take a person in capital markets, he will probably work not just on a deal that is only a capital market deal. 13:37 If it's, for example, in connection with an M&A transaction, he will be embedded in a larger team, in a larger setup where there are a number of products that are involved. 13:47 So indirectly, I think you could spend more time with a counterpart in that different department and learn indirectly. 13:56 Um, I think that already helps you whether what is done there interests you, excites you, because in the end, I think you need to love what you do, because otherwise you won't run the marathon. 14:06 You maybe do a couple of sprints, and then you think that, okay, that was nice, but I want to try something else. So that's the indirect way. 14:13 I think then the more direct way is that you, uh, as many banks now have, which wasn't sort of the case back when I started, I had to ask more for it than to have it a bit handed on the plate. 14:22 But I think now there are these rotation programs where you can, uh, rotate into, into a different department for a certain period of time, say three to six months, to augment that experience with a more direct experience, which are probably sensible approaches to gain a, a more versatile experience. 14:41 That's great. Thanks for that advice, and I think that's definitely something that's relatively easy to implement, right? 14:46 In terms of that indirect area you mentioned, just trying to learn from your counterparts and really being curious and taking an interest in the other products that are part of the deal that you're involved in. 14:56 Look for those rotational programs. I think you're right. There's a lot more in play these days, but still being, uh, curious about that. 15:03 You also touched on making sure you like it, and a-again, speaking to you, that's a theme that we talked about, really enjoying the industry and the work that you're working in. 15:14 Have you got any words of advice around that or wisdom that you could share with the audience today? I think that's, uh, that could fill one podcast in itself, uh- [laughs]... 15:22 because I think it touches a, a little bit around the whole work-life balance element. 15:27 The way I see it, if you love what you do, then work and life, uh, is a bit intertwined, and you don't even have that debate, uh, with yourself. 15:35 Because I always think about when, when I went on the soccer pitch or something else, and I did it, you notice when you're in this flow, then time just flies by. 15:44 And that is what I mean by really thinking hard and what you mentioned before, have that mindset and really listen to yourself, whether it's what you really like and enjoy doing. 15:55 Because that is key to then really know whether that's what is something you want to do for the long run. 16:01 And this sort of goes hand-in-hand with gaining more exposure to other elements of, of an investment bank, because that helps you a little bit with that feel and sense whether that's what you want to be in for the long run or not. 16:16 So I think that's another benefit by getting exposure to other elements of the investment bank before you basically say, "Ah, okay, I tried it. Now I try something else." 16:26 Because I think that this is a current theme these days that maybe, I wouldn't say people give up, they just say, "Okay, maybe now I try something else." 16:33 But before maybe they try something else, try something else within the investment bank, because there might be actually something that you enjoy more than what you're doing currently to get what I think nowadays is generally referred to in the flow state, where time passes so quickly. 16:46 And if you're in that state, that means for that given task, you're really having a good time. 16:50 And that's quite important, in my opinion, to find out for yourself whether that's something you want to be in for a long term. 16:56 I love that sentiment, and you make an important point that you don't have to move out of the bank necessarily or change jobs to test things or try things. 17:04 And I think there's more flexibility now in, in the banks from what I hear. So that's an important point and hopefully something the audience will dial into. I'm thinking again, versatility change. 17:15 I know that when we spoke, we, we touched on the differences between an originator and an executioner, and I want to kind of bring that conversation in today's podcast. So- Yeah. 17:25 First of all, a couple of questions I want to dig on there. What are the differences in your opinion between being an originator and executioner? And then what skills are required to be really good in each? 17:35 I think that origination, whilst there are also processes in place, I think they're more vague. They are probably a bit more undefined. 17:43 Whereas in execution, you have percent depending on which product it is, you probably have more well-defined processes. 17:49 So I think that's, if you picture that as sort of a starting point, it probably gives you a bit of a flavor that there is a difference and not everyone who excels in one is necessarily, uh, excelling in the other and vice versa. 18:03 I think also is the reason why you want to have diverse teams because some people are good from a personality perspective in, in that area, i.e. 18:11 maybe they're a bit more creative, but they like this uncertainty a bit more and maybe are therefore a, a bit quicker o-on thinking on their feet when it comes to origination. I think that is a bit more required. 18:23 Whereas on execution, you probably have people that like it more if it's struct certainty than in on the other side. 18:28 So this is how I would generally describe it.And that's why I always say to my guys early on, gotta listen to a little bit where your strengths are, because coming back what I said earlier, most of the time people get into the flow state if they play to their strengths rather than focusing too much always on their development areas, always on the weaknesses, because maybe no matter how hard they try, maybe they're very good at it, but they don't enjoy it as much. 18:55 And that's why it's actually very good to think early on and try both where you think your strengths are, because at some point it makes sense to make a decision of what you enjoy more and pick one over the other. 19:11 I think that's where some banks make the mistake, then everyone should be an originator as soon as they are senior. I don't necessarily believe in that because as I said before, execution doesn't take care of itself. 19:21 There is an element where also judgment and execution is required, and if someone really, really, uh, excels in execution, loves maybe eighty percent certainty and twenty percent where he brings in his judgment or she brings in her judgment for the overall outcome, very good person to have in the team. 19:39 I definitely, uh, agree with that, and we see it in sales as well, right? 19:42 Where you have strong salespeople and then they get earmarked for management, and maybe that's not where they want to be or what their skill set is best suited to. 19:49 So I think it's v- a similar discussion there on originator and executioner as well. So I like that take, and as you said, it comes back to understanding your strengths and where you feel you can have the biggest impact. 20:00 So I like that. Whilst we're on issue, when we had a discussion, you had an interesting take on the coverage and origination model. 20:09 So I wanted you to share a bit about how you've adapted that model to be successful in your career. 20:13 So if we talk about IBD, so on the corporate client side, typically you have, uh, a coverage model that is a matrix from, uh, a country coverage to a sector coverage to a product coverage. So I'd say a three. 20:26 Now, if you think back what I, what I mentioned earlier, if you become versatile either on products or on your industry, by definition you're also gonna have the trust of your clients, which is important for origination and hence the coverage overall. 20:43 And if you, if you spin that a bit further, if one person has that versatility, he can probably fill two roles out of that three-pillar matrix. 20:53 So he could, for example, be a sector banker and a coverage person across that industry. And that's happening more and more. And that I think does two things. 21:04 One is you become more productive and effective because you sort of covered two roles maybe in one. 21:12 But also it helps you to become better in what you do because then, uh, y- because you do the coverage combined with your skill set, you actually, what I said before, you're gonna build more trust because you're gonna have more exposure by covering your clients. 21:27 So I think that whilst that's not one size fits all because m- some large clients have maybe the same mapping that I mentioned in terms of these three pillars, other clients, this could suit, uh, them also quite well. 21:39 So it's being open-minded and bracing this two-pillar model versus al- always the three-pillar approach that seems to be the standard. Interesting. And it makes sense to me and i-i-it ties back into that versatility. 21:52 If you built the skills and you can play at a higher level and drive that efficiency into the model, it makes a lot of sense. Is that how you built out your team i- at UBS in Frankfurt, essentially? Yeah. 22:03 Well, in Frankfurt, you or generally away from the headquarters, you generally have a generalist set up anyhow. 22:10 I think what we did differently is that we then also had more product people on the ground rather than just having the generalists there. 22:19 I think the way two key teams in London, but then added people locally to bring out that connectivity that I mentioned earlier, that they sit closer together with the generalists and, and learn from each other. 22:33 So proximity is quite important. That lost a little bit in particular for the more juniors in, in COVID times with home office. 22:41 So that's why I think it's actually quite important in particular for the more junior bankers that are actually in the office and profit from sitting to people that are in a different department. 22:49 But that's how I always thought about building the teams. 22:53 But it's also important when you talk about building the teams, it's the team structure and probably in that order, because the skills and the experience, they will build up automatically. 23:03 And so I think the other three elements are more important to thinking about putting the team together than just always worrying about the skills. Thanks for sharing that. 23:10 You obviously did it so well back in MS days and again at UBS, so it's good to get your take on that and, and how to structure it correctly. 23:18 We should touch a bit more into the equity space, particularly given that that's where you have so much of your expertise as well. 23:24 So for those listening that are already working in the equity space or for those listening that want to get into the equity space, what advice do you have for them particularly to succeed? 23:34 I think if you work in ECMs on the, the issuer and clients, not on the market side, it's very important to know the investors because at end of the day, what drives the judgment that is required of you as an ECM banker is not so much that you can read the market news and interpret that, but it's more important to actually know what the investors want at any given point in time. 24:02 And in my experience, it's only possible if you actually have direct contact with them. 24:09 And I don't mean you need to cover banks have salesforce and have the market side, but if you know a few opinion leaders over the years who you meet anyway because you b- be along on, on the roadshow and so forth, if you have that direct contact with investors, that's critical in terms of differentiating yourself maybe with others who don't have that. 24:28 So I think that's one of the key points that I would say is quite important.And that is also applicable to high yield, that's applicable to equity-linked. 24:38 I think that's applicable to all products where you are advising the issuer who in the end sell that to investors that you also know what the other side who is buying it is thinking. 24:50 It's pretty obvious, but I don't think many people actually do it from very early on on their career. Interesting. Thanks for sharing that. 24:59 And, uh, getting to know the investors, you said roadshows, there's opportunities there. 25:03 Are there other tips or advice that you can give the audience on how to build a better network of investors and getting to know really what they're thinking? I think the easiest when you do a transaction to be involved. 25:14 I think the other way is also, I mean, each, each bank has, has a syndicate function. You, you can either ask for a rotation to syndicate, work closely with syndicate who have that direct access, you know, see whether... 25:27 Because also on the investor side, they have junior folks that are starting out there. So get to know your peer group essentially on the investor side and basic- grow with them. 25:39 They might over time do something else, m-move around at their respective shops, and building that connectivity early on are relationships you will have for a long time. 25:50 Maybe try to do that also with adjacent products, because I think an, an ECM deal in itself, unless it's maybe an IPO, but even there you have maybe some deleveraging at the time of the IPO. 26:06 So having the knowledge of other elements that are adjacent to the equity product, I think is very helpful to understand the equity product. Because the equity investors will ask questions, "Okay, what's the leverage? 26:19 What's that?" Now, if you then only know these things by its name, but don't have a feel for what it actually means for the very sector, for that, it is just a number. 26:29 But if you know why they wanna know it, why maybe the debt investors thinks about it in that way, that will also help you better understand the equity investor. 26:37 So I think the, the next thing knowing the investors, I think would be that versatility we were talking about earlier, to have that also with that in mind, that it actually does help you to understand your own product better. 26:52 Because in a capital structure, these things don't work in isolation. They are different across companies, they're different across sectors, and just knowing that they're different is pretty obvious. 27:05 But getting a better flavor for what it actually means and what it means in terms of credit spreads, i.e. 27:11 something that is not necessarily now screamingly obvious for the ECM product, it acts a lot with your judgment that you're building up over time. Perfect. Yeah, thanks for that, and I think great advice again. 27:23 Spend a bit of time in the syndicate, grow with the juniors on the investor side, and I hear that a lot. 27:28 The relationships you make early and how you cultivate those relationships across your career have a big impact on your success. And again, building knowledge that can add value, I think they're all great, uh, tips. 27:38 So thanks for sharing that and hopefully he-helps a number of the audience today. We touched a bit on, uh, the versatility, knowledge. 27:46 When we talked about origination, we talked about knowing your strengths and the creativity part that comes into it, being it's not as he-heavily, uh, process, uh, led. 27:55 For those VPs, which are nearest to moving into that executive director, managing director titles, what key advice do you have for them to succeed? 28:03 Look for any level the advisor always give, and that's what you see also in the three sixty reviews people get, is you almost have to think about what do I need to do to perform on the current level for the next level? 28:16 Which is a bit rephrasing your question a bit because if, if you have that in mind, it becomes more clear what I, I come to next. And because it's two elements. 28:24 One is to get a sense, because on a VP level, you probably do still a bit of both origination and execution. 28:32 In fact, VPs run, and I think it's that time they should have a sense of what part a transaction they enjoy most. 28:42 So they should therefore at that point think about if they then want to make the ED or MD down the line, where to focus more over the next three years if they are at a place where you have a three-year, typically VP director level career path. 29:01 And the second element around that is the importance here to build the relationships on the corporate side. 29:10 Because there you're probably gonna be interacting with your counter, and if you get along well with him or her, then make sure you foster that relationship because I think that will be incredibly helpful for the origination part that you might or might not wanna play. 29:27 But there you get a good sense whether that is something you like, i.e. is that coverage of that person, of that client something you enjoy or do you enjoy the execution part, i.e. the process more? Yeah. 29:39 And at the VP level, you can really, really get experience in finding that one out. So that is what I would say is key. If you do see that you enjoy that, that means probably origination is a good place for you. 29:52 I-if you have a hard time to enjoy that, then maybe execution is better. And as I said, it's not like hundred percent, zero percent. Yeah. I, I, I think you cannot be good at one if you have no clue about the other. 30:05 So it's more like where you have your key strengths and then maybe that is something which is pronounced for you maybe eighty percent than the other twenty over time or vice versa. 30:16 Yeah, again, solid feedback and I can tell you did a lot of this in your career, focusing on really understanding what you like, where your strengths are. 30:24 It seems like planning is quite important at that VP level from what you share around the three sixty and actually understanding what it takes and of course, building those relationships w-with the corporate side that's gonna lead to successful origination if that's the, the path you take. 30:38 So I think, uh, a lot of good stuff there. Yeah. The other element I, I think it's also important on VP level is your leadership style. 30:45 Because many VPs also staff first, and they obviously have the associates and analysts working for them.So it's also a good time to hone your leadership skills at that point of time, i.e., whether you are very hands-on and micromanaging, because some of the juniors don't like it, but maybe they do like it. 31:04 I'm not saying that's necessarily, uh, micromanaging is necessarily a bad thing because then you give great guidance to your junior staff, and they appreciate it. 31:13 But over time, you won't have the time to do it in the same way. So early on, maybe defining and, and, and deciding on your leadership style can also be helpful at the VP level. So that's the second element. 31:27 The one is more around what you wanna do, and the other one is how you're gonna be doing it. 31:32 Uh, so I think those are the two things that I would highlight are important to maybe take a step back and think about at the VP level. Yeah, really interesting take. Leadership style, I like that. 31:43 And again, I think it is important that you understand your leadership philosophy maybe and how you're gonna guide the team. 31:51 Any, any advice on that, on how to better understand your leadership style or what's required for the team? It's a very personal thing, and therefore I don't think there is no sort of a broad advice I would give. 32:01 Maybe I would give just an example on how I found out what worked best for me. 32:06 So I always felt that giving people a bit more freedom, i.e., being more of mentor versus micromanager type of approach, always suited me better. 32:16 That doesn't mean that this is one size fits all and everyone should be that way. 32:20 I always felt comfortable with giving people that freedom and autonomy, knowing that they would hopefully come to me when they notice that they're stuck. 32:32 'Cause I think you have also risks in doing that because if you give too much freedom, then things might go wrong. 32:37 Be a bit careful because he owns the execution, he owns the process, so if something goes wrong, yeah, he needs to take ownership. 32:44 So I think this is very much comes down to the trust internally and the people that work with you rather than for you. They work with you. That's how I was al-always my approach, they work with you. 32:55 And that has some risk in itself because then you might be called to be h-too much hands-off. So I think it's finding that balance in the leadership style that is important. 33:05 And the other element that I fi-found is if it's what comes natural to you, then by default, people will then call that person, "Well, he's authentic." I don't think you can be authentic by switch of a button. 33:18 I think you become authentic by doing what suits you best, and that makes you authentic because it's a bit difficult to do it the other way around, at least that's, that's been my experience. 33:28 So see whether you're tending more to be the micro or more the mentor type approach. 33:32 The right answer is probably sometimes in the middle and knowing the time where you need to be a bit more hands-on and the times where you can be a bit more hands-off. 33:41 So I think that's the challenge, that's the challenge you're facing by determining your leadership style. The answer is probably somewhere [chuckles] in the middle of the two. 33:48 Yeah, I like that take, and a lot resonates with me again. I mean, it is a balance, isn't it, between that empowerment and the coaching, I would say. 33:55 There's that mentorship approach, and again, you can't appear authentic. You need to be authentic, right, as you say. So I guess a lot of it is learning as a leader, I think, as well. 34:05 I'm a big believer that there's a lot of other resources that help us grow as a leader, and I hope these podcasts adds to that amount of resources. 34:12 So is there things that you've done specifically that helped you grow and develop as a leader outside of just being in the role? So I don't know if you had books or podcasts or mentors. Yeah, absolutely. 34:24 So I started them very early on because I always had an interest in a lot of other things. Look, it's, uh, something that is totally unrelated. 34:30 There are things like the waking lab, reading books around maybe different, like Nassim Taleb on Black Swans and Antifragility. 34:39 I think it's things like the Huberman Lab, which is a good podcast on sort of how the human body and mind works. 34:47 So I, I think that helps you to realize that why there are differences on how people think, and that in turn at least helped me to then develop a leadership style that I have developed. 34:58 Whether that's a good one or not, uh, it, it, it's one that I have, and I think I would agree with you that's probably not coming from one book and from one podcast, but it's this approach to be open-minded to a lot of things. 35:10 The other podcast I listen to regularly is Philosophize This! by Ben West. That's also a good one just to see how people thought differently through different times. I think that, that can also perhaps help. 35:22 Yeah, I'm a big believer that successful leaders are readers or at least tapped into different resources to help sharpen their saw and, and, and grow. 35:29 So we'll take those titles and the podcasts and the books, and we'll put them in the show notes for those listening, for those who have an interest in, in checking those out. Okay. 35:37 And whilst we're in the leadership area, y- a big part of that for me is recognition and recognizing success within your own teams. And investment banking doesn't always get the best reputation for this. 35:48 So I wanted to sit there for a little bit and about how do you recognize success in your team, first of all? 35:54 Well, I, I measure it a little bit in terms of the spirit, in terms of the enthusiasm, in terms of how much communication is ongoing. 36:03 Because I think that are sort of the key soft factors that if you see them or you don't see them, then you know you have a bit of a problem. Okay. 36:13 Because if, if you have all of those three, I think then the financial successes will come. 36:20 If you have them and they don't come, well, then you need to see whether there's some other things missing in terms of skills and so forth. But you have those three soft elements, or at least there's a good team dynamic. 36:31 People come, people go, but if you have that type of spirit, this enthusiasm, then I just think people are more likely to be happy in what they're currently doing than not. 36:41 And I don't know what the statistics is, but I think you have twenty, thirty percent that are constantly checked out. Yeah, and then, uh, that obviously changes with the markets a little bit. 36:49 But, uh, I think if, if you have that statistics underlyingIn your mind, then I think it's clear that those three things become actually quite important and sometimes more important than just the next deal. 37:02 Yeah, definitely. Well, where talent attraction and retention are key challenges, right, for the industry. 37:07 So the more you can do around that cultural piece and recognition piece, I think will go a long way to helping with those challenges. 37:15 A-again, having built the teams that you have built over your career, are there certain things that you've done to build better spirit, better enthusiasm, tighter communication? Yeah. 37:26 That's why setting up it, I think it's important. So I look for the chemistry, for the diversity, and then only as a third point, maybe the skills. Because even if someone doesn't have the skills or does... 37:36 has done something else and wants to come into now our team and do something new, if that person fits from a chemistry and diversity perspective, and that's why I'm saying, and that's investment banks I think have been addressing that with being much more open mind and actually encouraging rotations, encouraging also transfers, because if someone is very good, has maybe a skill set in another area, doesn't like to do, if you don't offer that to him or her, that possibility, he or she might leave anyway. 38:03 And therefore, I think that's how I looked at it, because if you do that and listen to people what they want to do and they fit for the other two reasons, if they do enjoy what they're doing, they will be bringing enthusiasm, they will be bringing the chemistry because they enjoy what they're doing. 38:20 Yeah? And that's how I, I always thought about it when building the teams, but also making sure how the team interacts with the other teams. That's probably a good approach that I found helped me a lot. Yeah. 38:32 The listening, I think is y-you're nail on the head there. Obviously, understanding people's needs and what they want to do and what brings the right level of enthusiasm from them i-is key to that successful culture. 38:44 Uh, and w-what's in the culture area, a couple of other questions that spring to mind. This is a global podcast, and we've had a diversity of leaders, but you are the first that's based in Germany. 38:55 I know you've had diversity across your career, both working in the States and London and now, uh, in Germany. H-how do you think that European investment banking culture has changed since Brexit? 39:05 Yeah, it's a good question. Well, whilst I'm German, I always get the response, I'm the most untypical German I ever met. [laughing] I'm not sure that I'm the best person for that. 39:14 But, but joking aside, I mean, um, I left, I left Germany pretty early on when I was twenty one, and I didn't return really, mm, until I was mid to late thirties. Mm. 39:23 Well, I'd say that I think Brexit probably didn't have as much as an impact as COVID did, frankly. I think what Brexit did to some extent, but much less than what people expected, um, European investment banking, 39:39 when it really started, was sort of in the eighties and nineties, and, uh, this was a very decentralized setup at the time. American banks probably focused on very much the hotspots, 39:50 and then over time, as European banks transformed or built up investment banking divisions, I think you saw quite a bit of change. 39:58 And then with Brexit, uh, some people expected this to be fully reversed, but it hasn't really happened. In particular, it hasn't really happened on the corporate side. 40:08 It happened a bit more on the market side for regulatory reasons. 40:12 I think on the investment banking side, you have seen some of that migration to more continental European cities, but it wasn't as big, in particular on the IBD side, as some people have expected. 40:25 I think COVID had a bit of a bigger impact. I mean, I can only tell s-from my personal side was before COVID, I would still go post-Brexit once every week or two days every other week to London. 40:39 With COVID, it wasn't possible to do that, and I think after that, I don't think it came back in the same way as it once was. That's an interesting take. 40:49 We travel a lot, uh, Outram, each year to the European cities where we have strong clientele, and we've seen those offices change slightly, as you mentioned, with people moving out of London to there. 40:59 But I agree, I think it's probably balancing a little bit and not as widespread as first thought, right? So interesting. 41:07 And I, I ask a lot of leaders that I meet this question, which is really, we understand investment banking is a really demanding industry. 41:14 So how do you manage the culture effectively as a leader whilst considering the demands of the clients and the business? In terms of work-life balance or in what sense? 41:24 Y-yeah, obviously, it's a demanding business and hours are long, and I think there's been a shift in terms of the thinking around the more junior members of the industry where they want more flexibility or the, the hours aren't expected to be as long as they used to. 41:38 But obviously, the clients have demands, right? And that's part of working in the business. So how do you balance that as a leader? To the junior people on that point, I think 41:46 there are now better processes in place, uh, for weekend work, better processes in place for 41:51 these rotations I said, better also, I think, internal resources and actually also the junior people set a support network, but just activities they do, newsletters they send out. 42:03 So I think there has been quite a bit address those concerns that junior bankers had. 42:08 I think the demands on the client side, they haven't really changed on the other side, but I think the way to address that is instead of the promising something the next day, I don't think the clients are upset if you say... 42:25 if they ask you, "Okay, by what time can you do it?" And you then say, instead of, uh, "Did you have that tomorrow morning?" You say, "Look, we are pretty stretched right now. We wanna make sure you get the best service. 42:36 You get a pro- better product if you have it early next week," for example. I mean, that's one way to deal with it. 42:41 So there's all well and good that you do have these internal things, but it's also the external communication where you need to set the expectations, and you need to have, as a leader there, a bit of, I'd say, gut feel of whether you need to have that on that client's desk tomorrow or whether that's really something that can wait till next week.Because if everyone always promises next day, next day, next day, that's where the problems then arise. 43:09 If you balance this out a bit more, then you also can manage that workload better. So that's just good discipline to say, okay, either you then ask the question, "Okay, by when would you like to have it?" 43:21 Then maybe you even learn something new by asking that question, because he might be says, "Well, we have a meeting only next Thursday, so if I have it by Tuesday and we have a call on Wednesday, that will work fine for me." 43:34 S-so then you also get a little bit more information, okay, what's their internal deadline, and that obviously gives you also some valuable information. 43:43 So I often say, maybe you ask the client when he wants it, rather than just promising it by tomorrow, because then he has it tomorrow and won't look at it till next Tuesday. Yeah. Seems simple, doesn't it? 43:53 It sounds, it sounds super simple. It sounds super simple, but it doesn't happen all the time. But I think in the last few years I, I really have seen a change on that. That's great. 44:03 So for those aspiring leaders listening or leaders already, good to think about these things, about asking the right questions of the client and setting the right expectations and how that impacts the team, right? 44:13 So important point. I've had a ton of fun, but we are reaching the end of the recording. So couple of questions I guess. We're in the flow. Yeah. We're, we're in the flow. [laughs] Definitely. Definitely. 44:25 So I guess a couple of questions to finalize. First of all, if you could go back now to your first day as an analyst at Merrill, knowing what you know, what's the one piece of advice you'd give yourself? 44:36 It's a bit of memory lane now, Pete. That's it. Nostalgia. [chuckles] Nostalgia. I mean, look, I, I think this was really, uh, on the heyday, uh, of investment banking for joining, I'd say. 44:49 More broadly, I was probably, uh, ten years too late thinking back now, but you know, hindsight is always a beautiful thing. I was just coming back from a three-month training program. 44:58 Three months, everyone went to New York for the training program, and you had like a, a, a course from, uh, NY, one of the best professors in corporate finance, and then two months of internal education. 45:09 So really three months spent, uh, there on training. And therefore, I think the whole spirit was obviously sky high. I think what I said before in terms of those rotations, I think they were certainly very good. 45:24 I think what I probably would have wanted that someone would have told me, "Why don't you not try out to do private equity or actually rotate into something else?" Because that's what I didn't do. 45:38 So I've been doing it now for twenty-five years and, and rotated a lot around, uh, different areas within investment banking, but never really outside. 45:45 So that would have helped me to see that private equity was one that was growing like crazy in the last twenty years, because investment banking wasn't really since then. 45:56 It became more, more cyclical, became more a market share grabbing game rather than a market share expansion type of game. 46:04 And that's certainly other parts of the financial industry did enjoy, I think, what marketing people call the blue ocean. There was a lot of blue ocean happening. 46:14 But you know, in hindsight, easy to say because no one predicted like twenty years of low interest rates that clearly fueled the private equity industry. 46:24 But that is one element that maybe if I tried it, I would have seen it. I did not see it, to be honest with you. Interesting. As you said at the start, hindsight's a wonderful thing. Exactly. 46:34 But what, what's come through loud and clear- It's not that I regret it. 46:36 But what's come through loud and clear is that it's about taking those opportunities to rotate, learn new things, be versatile, see what's on the horizon. So- Exactly. Good stuff. 46:46 So f- just before we, we, we wrap then, final question. A-anything I haven't asked you that you feel the audience should know today? Well, a bit off topic, but I share two things that I always say. 46:55 One thing, sometimes I mean it literally, sometimes I just mean it as an approach. It's I always say, "The answer is always convertibles. What's the question?" And then people always look at me funny. 47:05 [chuckles] Uh, but what I do want to express with that is that sometimes if you get the question, you need to ask that question differently. 47:13 That's how I often approach it, also with some of the elements we talked about through the session today. And last but not least, I always end with onwards and upwards. Love that. 47:24 [laughs] Those who know me well know I use that phrase a lot, so that's a little bit spooky, to be honest. But, uh- Yeah, it's good. [laughs] Thanks for that. [laughs] Nice. Okay. Well- Many people probably have adapted. 47:35 Yeah. Well, Armin, thanks so much, buddy. I really appreciate the, the time today. 47:39 I know how busy you are on many fronts, so taking some time out to meet with me, to share your wisdom, to help the audience is much appreciated, and I know there'll be a ton to, to take away from today's episode, so thank you so much. 47:52 It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Pete. This episode of the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast was brought to you by Outram, the global leaders in the financial deal gift, awards, and recognition space. 48:02 So if you need any assistance, don't be afraid to hit me up or the Outram team. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode, and thanks for joining us. And until next time, best of luck on your growth journey. 48:14 [outro music]
