Transcript 0:00 [on-hold music] Welcome to the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast, the only podcast dedicated to helping the investment banking community grow through learning from successful leaders. 0:14 So whether you're interested in learning about investment banking, or you're an analyst or associate looking for advice on career progression and succeeding in the industry, or a VP or senior that's passionate about leadership, you'll take away something from each and every episode. 0:27 My name is Pete Nieberg, global head at Outram, and my mission is to connect as many of you with successful investment banking leaders as possible. So thanks for joining me and enjoy today's episode. 0:39 [on-hold music] So I'm super excited to introduce today's guest, Gökhan Özkan, the managing director at J.P. Morgan here in London. 0:50 Gökhan has over 17 years experience in the investment banking industry with a deep understanding of FIG and credit management. He spent most of his career at J.P. 0:58 Morgan, starting off as an analyst and growing through the ranks to reach the MD role within 15 years. Currently, he's the head of FIG in Turkey, Middle East, and Africa. 1:08 Gökhan has advised on many successful transactions across his career, including landmark transactions such as UMB's three-way merger with ADCB and Al Hilal, which was a $17 billion deal, and more recently, National Commercial Bank on its merger with Samba Financial Group, which was a $46 billion deal, the largest FIG M&A deal for more than a decade. 1:31 So Gökhan certainly understands a thing or two about success. Outside of that, he's an all-round great guy, and he's really passionate about sharing his knowledge and helping others in the industry to grow. 1:41 So it was a no-brainer for today's episode. So welcome to the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast, Gökhan. Thanks for joining me and the audience today. Thank you, Pete. 1:49 Uh, I think the 17 years of experience surely makes me look, uh, quite old, uh, [chuckles] but hopefully, uh, I have, um, still like a f- a few things, uh, to give, uh, on the, on the job. Still a long way to go. 2:02 And for those with a video, uh, you're looking good today. So hey, let's start just with a... I know most of our listeners will be very familiar with J.P. Morgan, but just start with a quick introduction to J.P. 2:11 Morgan and what you do, uh, for your clients. Sure. So I think, I mean, J.P. Morgan, of course, I think it will be familiar to all the audience. 2:20 Uh, we are a bank involved in almost all parts of the financial services, so you could, uh, describe it as a financial supermarket, let's say. 2:30 And, uh, we have a market cap of around $400 billion with net income of almost $40 billion, uh, per year, uh, present in, uh, with the Chase brand in the US, uh, on the, uh, conventional banking side, and J.P. 2:45 Morgan brand is obviously for the, uh, investment, uh, banking side. 2:50 We have, uh, 300,000 employees, uh, across the world and, uh, present in, um, we are doing business in more than 100, uh, countries, and we have offices again, around, uh, more than like 60 countries as well. 3:04 So we are clearly a global firm. And, uh, obviously, uh, our CEO, Jamie Dimon, is quite well-known. 3:10 He was actually recently, uh, in London, uh, for our CEO conference, and, uh, we would like to keep this, uh, global connectivity across the continent, such as Middle East, as you just described on some deals, and Latin America, Asia, US, uh, Europe. 3:27 Uh, so clearly, um, a quite, uh, well-established, uh, firm. 3:32 And, uh, it's really important for us, uh, to recruit the young talent, and I think, yeah, with this podcast, hopefully, uh, we can give, uh, a further background for younger audience. Perfect. 3:44 Thanks so much for the intro, Gökhan, and certainly the listeners today, uh, I'm sure will be intrigued and, and wanna know how they can, uh, be part of it. 3:51 So I'm always interested speaking to successful leaders with 15 years, 16 years plus in the industry about their journey. 3:58 Uh, I know you started as a logistics engineer at Procter & Gamble before moving into investment banking. So, so why don't you tell us how you ended up in the industry? Yeah. 4:07 So I think it, of course, it has been a long time. Uh, but when I started, uh, I was of course quite young, uh, just, uh, finishing out of the university. 4:16 I studied industrial engineering in Turkey, and, um, the most, uh, relevant job for me was to be logistics engineer. 4:24 Procter & Gamble came to our campus, and they are actually great, uh, at marketing, and it was a really, uh, strong, uh, brand name, and, uh, it was, uh, sort of the dream of, um, myself as well to, to work there. 4:39 But once I started, uh, working there, it didn't feel, um, so right for me in the, in the sense that, yes, it was a great job. 4:47 There is, uh, nothing bad about being a logistics engineer, and I studied industrial engineering, but, uh, I didn't really feel, uh, quite, uh, content with what I was doing. I didn't feel happy. 4:58 When you wake up, I think you really need to be motivated, uh, to go to work. 5:03 So just after six months, I actually started, uh, looking for, um, other opportunities and, um, I think investment banking, yeah, was fascinating for me. Not that I knew anything about investment banking. 5:17 My father is a doctor. My mother is a teacher. We don't have any bankers or investment bankers in the family. It wasn't well-known, um, in Turkey as well because it's an emerging market. It wasn't really well-developed. 5:30 But I was watching some movies. I was, uh, reading certain, uh, books. I was actually talking to other people. Internet, uh, was not as developed, uh, at the time, but, uh, still we had lots of resources. 5:43 And from some of the movies, uh, I watched like, uh, Wall Street, uh, Michael Douglas. There was Barbarians at the Gate, uh, regarding RJR Nabisco's, um, uh, leveraged buyout. 5:55 I really felt fascinated, and I was always a maths fan. I was into the financials, uh, stocks, uh, markets. So that actually, uh, uh, really made me interested and, uh-I applied. 6:10 I, I heard that JPMorgan was hiring, uh, uh, in, in, in Turkey with a, with a position in London, and it was a bit of a coincidence actually, but I was extremely motivated. 6:21 I didn't know anything about investment banking. Yeah, but that was, uh, one of the triggers, uh, for me to... I think I would say the movies and the books, uh, had a profound impact on me. I love it. Thanks for sharing. 6:33 And as I say, everyone's journey is unique, and yours is certainly unique. And from that industrial engineering, uh, background, do you feel that that's helped you in any way in the investment banking, uh, role? 6:45 So I think, yeah, yeah, engineering is obviously quite technical. 6:48 It could be boring at times, but given that it's technical, uh, you are actually quite, um, accustomed to working with numbers an- analyzing, solving problems, which actually resonates well, uh, on the investment, uh, banking, uh, front. 7:04 So on the technical part of the job, uh, I never had, uh, any issues because it's all about maths, it's all about, uh, deep dive, uh, analysis. 7:14 But of course, investment banking is not only about numbers, it's also about people. Mm-hmm. So you cannot just really, uh, quite like introverted and, uh, focusing only on, like, your work or your numbers. 7:26 It's a relationship business as well. But if you can combine both the technical part and also the human element, then, uh, you could really, uh, make a, make a difference. 7:37 I think for me, one struggle was I never had, uh, proper economics, uh, training. We had certain, uh, macroeconomics, microeconomics, uh, courses for industrial engineers. However- Mm-hmm... 7:48 I had to learn everything from, uh, the beginning, right, from scratch. So what I did is, uh, in order to, uh, prepare for the interviews, I actually, uh, bought some books like Fundamentals of Corporate Finance. 8:03 You had like Modern Corporate Finance Theory. And, uh, I started reading and it was actually quite, uh, entertaining for me. Like the dividends, how you raise funds for the companies. 8:15 And, uh, there was actually also, um, the, the end goal was to help the economies. 8:21 So it wasn't, uh, really not only for yourself, but you were effectively working, uh, for the economy, creating wealth, cr- with productivity. And, uh, that was actually quite, uh, touching for me as well. 8:33 So I thought, uh, I, I found actually a deeper meaning, yeah, uh, working on, um, on, on those topics. Nice. And I, I like the way you touched on people. 8:42 From the leaders I've had on the podcast recently, it's come up a lot that, you know, investment banking is a lot about people- Yeah... and the relationships you have. So it's not surprising to hear that. 8:51 And taking it on your own back to, to go and learn and read and, uh, maybe I'll grab some of those books to pop into the show notes for our listeners as well. 8:59 But before we get into the, the real meat of the discussion today, um, just tell, uh, myself, the listeners one thing that we can't find anywhere about you, something unknown or unexpected. Yeah. 9:10 So I think, yeah, bankers, we are not so exciting people in general. Uh, so like I think, yeah, people see us more as the, of course, business-oriented, numbers-oriented, uh, finance-oriented people. 9:23 But I think when you get to know, uh, certain, uh, investment bankers or like other bankers across the, across the world also, especially in London circles, you will be fascinated. 9:33 Everybody has actually different, uh, hobbies. And, uh, for me as well, I have a wide set of hobbies. 9:40 Of course, sports, um, play an important part, uh, because you, you really need to like team sports in order to enjoy your job. So for me, of course, football, basketball, tennis are, uh, quite, uh, critical. 9:53 I'm a big fan of Galatasaray, uh, in Turkey, which is my football club. In L- in, in England- Mm-hmm... I support Liverpool. 10:00 I'm actually-- Uh, I was hoping for, for the Istanbul Champions League final, which will be, uh, on June 10th. Uh, because in 2005, I have a great memory. 10:10 I was at the university, and I traveled all the way from Ankara, my hometown, to Istanbul to watch Liverpool-Milan Champions League game. And it was such a, such an amazing, uh, game. 10:21 Like Liverpool won from three-nil down and against a very strong Milan team. Not a bad game to watch. Exactly. [chuckles] I remember it well. 10:28 I think it was like one of the best, probably the best, uh, Champions League final. So that was a, was a good one. So with tennis also, I'm extremely interested. Uh, and actually very, um, interesting anecdote. 10:39 Uh, when I was like around 11, 12 years old, I was watching Roland-Garros at Eurosport, and there were some like advertisements at the time for like, "I work for JPMorgan" advertisement. You can find it at YouTube. 10:51 This is a very old one, but it was a way for JPMorgan to attract talent. 10:56 And actually, I, I remember that, uh, for many years because like when you are so young and then when you see a company's, uh, advertisement, uh, it was actually quite, uh, interesting. 11:06 But I think, yeah, other, uh, thing to note is on the- Mm-hmm... basketball side. Uh, when I was at university, I, I was a writer, uh, for, for NBA teams because I was watching NBA games. I was really obsessed about it. 11:18 For Dallas Mavericks, they had, uh, Dirk Nowitzki as one of the, uh, the best players. And since then, I'm fascinated with the NBA, um, uh, system because you actually... 11:29 even the worst teams can become, um, uh, quite good, uh, with the process. So you actually develop, develop players. 11:36 And with Golden State, uh, Warriors, uh, I was actually quite fascinated because given that, uh, they traded Steph, Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, and just from out- straight out of university, and, uh, they built a sort of a dynasty with four championships. 11:54 So I still follow. I think even last night, I think the Lakers-Golden State Warriors game was quite fascinating for me. 12:01 And apart from that, yeah, chess, uh, some other games like books or literature, these are all, uh, my passions, but obviously you don't have much time. Mm-hmm. 12:09 Uh, but still I'll try to find, find time at, at, uh, during weekends especiallyTo, to enjoy this like my colleagues. Nice. I'm a big sports fan. 12:19 Uh, I'm not that into NBA, I've got to admit, but, uh, big Arsenal fan, and we're having a good season, so hopefully, uh, the next few weeks will, will be good ones for us. Yeah. Okay, thanks. 12:28 And it's good to get a, a better understanding of you. Right. Let's talk a little bit about deal success. You know, successful deals is, uh, a key component, of course, to investment banking. Sure. 12:37 And we mentioned, uh, the biggest FIG M&A deal for more than a decade. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that deal, and in particular, what led to success within that deal. 12:47 I think the audience would really, would really love that. Well, that was actually quite an interesting one you mentioned on the, on your intro. National Commercial Bank, uh, merged with, uh, Samba Financial Group. 12:59 Uh, this, uh, created a bank with more than $200 billion of assets and around $50 billion market cap. 13:06 And, uh, post-integration, the market cap reached to almost $90 billion, and the assets are around $250 billion right now. So it was a quite a successful one. They changed the name to Saudi National Bank. 13:18 I think what was interesting, um, uh, is actually y-y-- it, it is the largest bank in Saudi Arabia, so they created a national champion, and it's sponsored by the government as well. 13:30 And, uh, the Middle East, Saudi Arabia are actually quite, like, interesting names nowadays. 13:35 If you look at the real GDP growth, uh, 2022, Saudi Arabia with almost 9% real GDP growth, uh, it was the fastest growing, uh, country among the largest economies, and there is a strong government push. 13:49 And, um, there is actually a bigger agenda to become a global champion. But for, for investment banking front, I think for client side, there was a clear strategic rationale. 13:59 But for investment banking side, this was the first deal we executed during the COVID times, like pandemic, uh, era. 14:07 And actually, we executed such a large deal mainly via video conferences because all the travels, uh, were blocked. 14:15 And, uh, it was done, uh, from a very small, um, uh, circle with the key decision-makers on, uh, each side. 14:22 Uh, and on our side, we of course traveled once the, uh, traveling, uh, was allowed, uh, with when the flights were operating. 14:30 But it showed that, uh, you could actually, uh, execute these deals, uh, in a v- with a very small, uh, circle of group if you have confidential, um, uh, sort of communication, uh, medium such as, um, video conferences, right? 14:46 And it was actually quite, um, quite an interesting one, and, uh, from a-- in a, in a very short timetable, uh, with a very detailed analysis. 14:54 And our client at the end, uh, was extremely happy and, uh, it was a quite, um, uh, highly regarded deal also in the international press. So that's why, uh, we are proud of it. 15:06 And it-- I think it also shows that, um, the deal-making, um, uh, processes will be, will be, will be a bit different, uh, in the current environment. 15:15 Because previously, our clients, they never used video conferences, they never used like, uh, certain, uh, mediums. But now, uh, especially during COVID, they had to. 15:25 They had to learn how to use-- uh, how to utilize, uh, these video conferences, and I think i-it, um, made a v-very, very interesting impact. 15:35 Still, um, still for many confidential discussions like board meetings, in-person meetings are, um, much, uh, much better, and, uh, we encourage that. 15:45 Uh, however, there are actually, uh, quite a bit of alternative ways, uh, in order to execute, uh, deals in the, in the current environment. Good. Perfect. 15:55 Yeah, and I think, uh, I've heard this a lot about the remote environment, of course, deals being done more frequently and being able to be done comfortably for, uh, for banks and for their clients. 16:05 Uh, again, looking at like what makes a successful deal. Are there some key ingredients for you that, y-you know, that, that lead you to that successful conclusion? Sure. So I think, uh, you really... 16:16 I mean, we are-- we work on either side, so either sell side or buy side. Or in a merger of equals, again, um, again, like I-- we work for one party, and we always aim to become the trusted, uh, advisor. 16:30 So we need to be really, uh, authentic, uh, with our a-advice because it's a long-term, uh, business as well, and we would like to create value, uh, on behalf of our shareholders. 16:43 I think one key aspect is you really understand-- you really need to understand your clients, what their objectives are, and, um, what, what their, uh, goals are as well. This understanding is extremely critical. 16:56 And during the projects, you have lots of roadblocks. 16:59 So these type of big mergers, there are many issues as well, like such as negotiations are always extremely tough because when you discuss the value, the price, you need to be, uh, really, uh, quite detailed, and you need to, uh, provide your clients, uh, with ammunition when they discuss with other principals. 17:19 Or when you discuss with other investment bankers, you really need to be factual. You cannot just, uh, get the best results, uh, with, uh, half-baked ideas. 17:28 And, uh, also whenever there are, uh, issues, you need to anticipate those issues, and you need to be upfront to the clients. 17:37 Uh, so it's never a good idea, of course, uh, to, uh, hide certain, um, uh, bad news, so you need to be upfront. And the timing is important. 17:47 So whenever you are aware of certain issues or certain like even good news or, or like bad news, you need to inform your clients. You need to give them advice, and, um, with consensus, then you can, uh, go, go ahead. 18:00 So I think these are quite important. And, uh, last but not the least, the team, uh, cohesion is, is really important at J.P. Morgan as well. 18:08 Because we generally have large teams in the, uh, for projects, uh, from, uh, analysts, uh, associates, VPs, EDs, MDs, uh, uh, department heads, senior, senior MDs as well.Uh, and, uh, the communication and the collaboration between these, uh, individuals, these bankers, are really important because for clients, when you go, uh, in front of client, you need to be, uh, really s- extremely coordinated and, uh, your message, uh, needs to be same across the firm. 18:39 Because after all, we represent, uh, an investment bank, a global investment bank, and, uh, our reputation is always on the line. 18:47 So I think as, as Jamie says, like the first-class business, uh, in, in the first, first-class way. So that is, that is our motto. Uh, and it's important to be coordinated, uh, across, uh, team members. Thanks. 18:59 I love that, Gokan. Like, you know, I was taking a lot of notes here as you're, as you're speaking and understanding clients' needs and their goals. 19:06 You know, looking for roadblocks, there's a lot of those, and being aware of them, anticipating issues and being open about them. Uh, time is critical there and obviously team cohesion. 19:15 So lots of great stuff for the audience today. 19:19 Thinking about the analysts and the associates, I know they're not really driving the, the client, uh, relationship per se, but they're key, as you mentioned in the team cohesion bit, to the deal being successful. 19:28 What advice could you give them or what are you looking for from those analysts and associates in the team to make the deal successful? 19:35 So for sure, I think for, for analysts and associates, it could be challenging at times, but it could be also quite entertaining at times as well because their learning curve would be much steeper, uh, versus, uh, senior, uh, individuals. 19:50 So I think, uh, for them, um, I mean, at least for, for our company and I'm sure for our competitors as well, they are the backbones, uh, of our company. 19:59 So like associates, VPs, uh, analysts are the future of our company. So that's why there is really strong focus, uh, with- from our HR, from our senior management. 20:09 So whenever there are interviews, uh, we actually participate, um, at even like senior, uh, levels. And, uh, there is a really big focus even during recessions, uh, hiring is, uh, extremely important because these, um... 20:24 So when you hire actually, uh, top talent, that would help on the growth of the company. 20:29 So that is part of our P/E multiple, part of our price-to-book-multiple or market cap, because after all, we are also a people, uh, business, and that's why it's extremely important. 20:40 When analyst associates, uh, join us, I think our, uh, number one, uh, objective is, uh, to train them so that they are ready and they are well-equipped, uh, for the challenge, um, uh, of clients or to, uh, to give right advice to clients and to add value to clients, which are our, uh, effectively, uh, revenue generator. 20:59 Because after all, uh, we work for clients. We are, uh, on the sell side as investment bank. 21:05 Uh, and, um, with regards to the, uh, projects, so in almost every project, obviously you have a analyst, you have an associate, and it's important that they work, uh, well, uh, together. 21:18 And they have actually quite well-defined job responsibilities. 21:22 So for analysts, I think we expect them, um, to join like the key calls, uh, to be well-organized, to take notes, uh, to listen and to learn, and to get guidance from associates and the senior, uh, bankers and, uh, to deliver in a timely manner. 21:39 And attention to detail. So when it comes to review, that is, uh, one of the key parts because when, of course, you are younger, uh, sometimes like maybe you miss, uh, certain, uh, details. 21:49 So it is very important for them, uh, to check their work before sending, yeah, that work to the clients or, uh, internally. 21:58 Uh, it is really important to fix, uh, any mistakes, to look at it in a fresh, uh, pair of eyes, uh, right? So I think attention to detail is important and proactivity as well. Uh, so we really value proactivity. 22:12 We really value attention to detail and, uh, be- because like most of these analysts, they are already-- they already have a strong background, educational background. 22:21 They are well-motivated, uh, they are smart, uh, but, um, it, it is easy to make mistakes. 22:28 And, uh, we are working on, as we mentioned, the multi-billion dollar transactions and certain, um, mistakes, uh, could, could be actually damaging, uh, for the, um, uh, for the, for the project. 22:39 So that's why checking the work is really important. 22:42 So when we send something to clients, there are at least two, three, uh, iterations or, um, uh, control checkpoints, uh, at various levels to make sure that, uh, the client gets the highest quality output because they use your analysis for their own decision. 23:00 And if your base is wrong, then it doesn't really make sense. And plus, we also always like try to involve them, uh, at young age. 23:08 So in my career when I was like 22 years old, uh, my, uh, MD at that time, they were taking me to certain CEO meetings. 23:17 I was, uh, I wasn't talking obviously, but I was analyzing them and that actually, um, uh, helped me a lot, uh, on observing these successful CEOs, CFOs, head of strategy, et cetera, at a young age so that you can learn, uh, what it takes, uh, to get there. 23:35 I mean, I was terrified myself, uh, at the time, like when I see a CEO or when I see a MD, but now, uh, you, you, you, you get used to it and you see that, uh, there is nothing to be terrified. 23:46 They are also human beings, and they really approach younger people, uh, with, uh, quite like a compassion. So it's actually, I think, a great, uh, job investment banking at a young age. 23:57 I don't think there are many other, uh, professions, uh, in the world where you can get exposure to such, uh, senior decision makers at such a young age. Yeah, for sure. 24:07 And I think that exposure, like you said, it's so critical to growth and maybe a bit scary at first, but the, the more you do it, uh, the more, uh, comfortable you'll become. 24:15 And you know, a- again, t- burning up the pad here today- Yeah... with notes for the audience. 24:19 Uh, taking, taking calls, taking notes, delivering on time, being organized, detail orientation, really keys, especially for those big deals and being proactive. So lots of good tips there, I think for the listeners. 24:32 Um, if you thought about the challenges, what, what are the main challenges that you see facing analysts and associates today?So I think in terms of challenges, I think the first, uh, two years, the learning curve is extremely steep. 24:46 So especially like for first year, you, you just like learn so much. You have like all the types of, uh, different, uh, expert, different like projects, and I think, yeah, it never really gets, uh, boring. 24:59 But then on the, on the second year onwards, it has become-- it, it becomes actually a bit more challenging because the expectations increase. Uh, uh, the, uh, the demands, uh, would, would be, would be higher from you. 25:12 Because in the first year you have a learning curve, you do this first model, you might have, uh, mistakes or you, you make sort of presentations, Excel models, et cetera. You get, uh, guidance. 25:23 And in second year, again, you, you repeat this. But, uh, once you do something like, let's say, second time, third time, fourth time, you are expected to deliver it, uh, in quite, like quite accurately. 25:35 So I think it's really important, uh, to keep that learning curve, uh, uh, quite steep as well, and to focus on, uh, attention, uh, to detail. I think, yeah, diversifying experience is extremely important. 25:50 So what I would say is I think the-- and, and now obviously, uh, we have staffers, we have, um, uh, managers who are ca- who, who interact with, uh, analysts quite intensely. 26:02 There is really strong, uh, access, like the ap-approach. Most of the MDs are really approachable, uh, at the firm. So for analysts, I think they really need to diversify their experience. So in what way? 26:14 Such as, let's say they worked on a buy-side project on a mergers and ac- merger- mergers and acquisitions, M&A deal, right? So, uh, that-that's a great experience. 26:24 And then on the next deal, they work on a sell-side project, and the next deal they work on an IPO. So this is actually quite helpful compared to working on a sell side four times over the, over the two years. 26:36 Sometimes, yes, you don't really have a choice. It's just the, the team, the demands. 26:41 But, uh, if you have opportunity to diversify your experience across products such as like IPO, a bond deal, a leverage buyout, a spinoff, that really helps your career because you learn. 26:52 Because most of the deals, once you, you, you do, uh, one, one specific, uh, type of project, uh, every deal is different, but there are certain similarities as well. And with regards to geographies too. 27:04 So, uh, you, you, you-- It doesn't help to be like one-sided, right? It doesn't help to have only certain type of experience. 27:13 It helps to talk to people from different geographies to work on different projects and also, uh, rotations as well, which are generally encouraged, uh, across the globe. We are a global firm. 27:25 There are certain rotations between the teams, between the, between the regions. And, um, we have also certain like internal, uh, uh, gatherings. 27:35 And, uh, when, when you join those type of, uh, sessions, they are-- they actually enlighten, enlighten you. You can, um, uh, widen, uh, your, uh, understanding of investment banking. 27:47 So I think, uh, I wouldn't, uh, advise any analyst to just focus on their, their job and not in- getting not interested in other types of business. 27:57 So you really need to be, um, on the lookout for any opportunities, any, uh, staffing opportunities so that you can actually, uh, uh, diversify your experience and it, it make you-- makes you a better banker. Perfect. 28:11 Great advice there, I think. And yeah, getting-- dipping your toe into more things, learning more skills that are gonna help you be more well-rounded. Yes. Let's talk a bit- Exactly...a bit about mentorship. 28:21 Uh, it seems to me it's very varied from leader to leader and bank to bank. Talk to me a little bit about mentorship at JPMorgan, and also, uh, well, let, let's just start there. Sure. Sure. 28:31 So mentorship has been actually, uh, one of the key parts, uh, of investment banking as well. 28:38 When I first, uh, uh, joined, uh, JPMorgan, uh, I was interviewed by a very senior, uh, MD at, at the time, and he told me that, look, when he started, uh, this job, uh, uh, it was tough for him, but, uh, he moved, uh, up the ladder and he said that, "Look, this is, um, some of my friends when I started, they are not here. 29:01 They changed their career or they just couldn't cope up with pressure. So this is like sort of survival, um, uh, of the, of the fittest. But there is also the team, team environment as well." 29:12 He said that he's still in touch, uh, with, um, analysts that he, he got to know, uh, 25 years ago at the time. So I think, yeah, these, these type of elements are quite important. And, um, 29:25 investment banking, you have certain, uh, turnover rate as well. Uh, people, uh, can, um, uh, change their, uh, locations. They can move into different jobs. 29:35 But it's really important to stay in contact because some of your colleagues, uh, they could actually move into, uh, other, uh, corporates. 29:44 They can become CEOs, CFOs of, uh, large companies, and they actually become, um, uh, your, uh, your clients. 29:52 And, uh, with regards to mentorship, I think, yeah, for us, of course, um, I think J-Jamie has a special place, um, uh, amongst almost all JP Mor- obviously all JPMorgan employees. 30:04 Uh, he's really a, a great, uh, uh, speaker as well. So we were with him, uh, two days ago, and, uh, he's always authentic. He, he tells you what, uh, he thinks. 30:16 He does-- He never tells clients what clients, uh, need to think. He gives his opinion, uh, right or wrong, uh, doesn't matter. He just, uh, he has, he has opinion, and he reads a lot. 30:27 So I think he has been a great, uh, mentor as well. So we had lots of exposure, almost all employees to him. 30:34 And, uh, he loves history, he loves reading, and you cannot imagine like how much he reads every day, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, Economist. And, uh, when he talks, uh, he can talk about almost, uh, everything. 30:46 And I think that really, uh, gives, uh, encouragement, at least for the, for the MDs, uh, and other, other bankers, uh, within, uh, within the system, because you can learn and you get inspired, uh, by, uh, such a leader. 31:00 Uh, and I don't think like our competitors have a similar, uh, figure. So that's really, uh, helping us. 31:07 And, um, I think other, uh, uh, mentor I could mention is again, uh, within, uh, Europe, umThere are, uh, quite a few senior MDs who always, uh, approach you. They, um, they take interest in what you are doing. 31:22 Uh, they invite you for coffee, for, for lunch, and, uh, they give you advice as you move up through your career. Because a-as a VP or as a ED or as a MD, your aspirations are, and your challenges are always different. 31:37 And, uh, I think the, the key advice I always get is, uh, to focus on the clients, because clients are really critical, uh, for us, and we need to be not only a business partner for a client, but we also build certain friendship, because it's important to get trust. 31:52 After all, the difference you make, uh, across your competitors is not only your technical analysis, your advice, but it's also your reliability or trust. 32:01 Because they share their secrets with you, and, uh, in order to share their secrets, they need to trust you. They should, uh, be... They should ensure that you don't get their information and talk to another client. 32:14 So I think this trustworthiness, uh, is the number one advice, uh, we receive from our mentors. And within JPMorgan, I think the training program has been quite, um, uh, strong. 32:25 We have actually an analyst training, and that was actually one of the best times I had, uh, at JPMorgan. 32:31 Uh, when I first joined, they sent us to New York for the analyst training, and, uh, we had, uh, almost a two months, uh, training program at the time with, uh, New York University Professor Damodaran. 32:43 He, he taught us about, like, the cost of equity. We had, like, uh, certain professors or the, uh, the lecturers, economists. Uh, we learned everything from inside out. 32:53 And given that it was at the heart of Wall Street, it, uh, where you see, see from movies, uh, that, that really... 33:01 that was, that was really a great experience for me as a, um, uh, as, as an industrial engineer and as a person who is coming from Turkey, from an emerging market, that really, uh, helped me. 33:11 And I, I hear this strong feedback from other, uh, analysts as well. And when you get to associate or VP or MD, we still, uh, repeat these, uh, training, uh, programs, uh, across the, um, uh, across the titles. 33:25 Oh, you still have them at VP level- Even MD level, and, like, you can get, uh, sort of courses on, um, uh, on, like, how to communicate or how to negotiate, um, uh, with, uh, with, with the other party, or, uh, you learn, uh, more on, like, deeper, deeper skills when you get to the, um, uh, upper, upper, upper, upper part of the ladder. 33:49 So obviously, that mentorship is important and, you know, you s- you felt that in terms of your progression and success within the industry and your career. M-maybe for those, uh, more junior in the industry- For sure... 34:00 understanding how to seek out a mentor or find a good mentor, how to even go about that. Any advice or recommendations? Yeah. Sure. 34:07 So I think, uh, one recommendation is they shouldn't be shy, because that's the number one thing. Most of the analysts, when they first, uh, come, they are just say, "Okay. 34:17 Look, uh, I'm at, unfortunately, bottom of the food chain. I, I don't want to disturb people. I don't want to annoy people." No, I think there is no, um, uh, such thing. So I think... 34:28 And that-that's another thing about the, um, working from office. 34:32 So once you are in the office, so let's say as an MD, I'm in my office now, my door is, uh, closed because of this podcast, but after the podcast, my door- Mm-hmm... is always, uh, open or, like, they see you. 34:43 We have the windows, and if they s-see that you are busy, then yes, fine, they just, uh, go away. 34:49 But when they see that you have a bit of time or, like, you are, uh, you are walking around, et cetera, um, that makes you really approachable. And they tell you, "Look, can I speak, uh, on something for two minutes?" 35:02 They ask for advice, or they mention some of their, like, experience, uh, bit o-on a project. So we are, uh, really a-approachable and, um, uh, this is really key, I think, yeah, for analysts, uh, to, to benefit. 35:16 And but while if you work from home, the, the issue is then they need to call you or they need to email you, and, uh, sometimes it might be difficult. 35:25 So when they see that you have actually free time, that makes you more approachable. So that's why we believe in synergies and, um, especially on the senior side. Uh, there was an announcement, uh, recently as well. 35:38 So we try to be in the office, uh, five times a, five times a week, unless we are traveling or unless we are, uh, meeting clients, because it really helps on the, on the juniors. 35:48 Because some of our analysts who were recruited during the pandemic, they had actually certain, like, unfortunate experience because they got hired, but they didn't see almost anyone, uh, for months, uh, for quarters, right? 36:01 So that actually, uh, limits, uh, the learning, um, opportunity because they don't see, uh, other seniors in action. So I think those synergies, in-office synergies are really important. 36:14 And we also organize lots of off-sites or when we go abroad for client meetings, we take, uh, juniors. So these are, like, really important, uh, for us, the, the analysts and associates. Thanks for sharing. 36:28 And I think, yeah, it's right. Sometimes when you get into the job early, it's difficult to feel like you can ask questions or approach others. 36:34 But, uh, it's glad that you have that open door policy, and I think it's key for growth. I wanna touch a bit on network- networking. 36:40 A lot of the leaders I've spoken to recently have put a lot of importance on networking and building a network early in your career. Any, uh, thoughts on that? So I think that's exactly extremely important. 36:52 Again, uh, we have, uh, certain analysts, they come from a-as, as I am, like engineering background, maths background, et cetera. 37:00 We see them, they could, uh, be a bit more introverted, while we have also certain analysts, they are more social and, uh, when we a- assess their CVs, uh, their experience with like, uh, extracurricular activities, uh, running, like working on certain, uh, clubs at universities, these are all, uh, quite helpful. 37:20 And, um, we try to encourage them to be as, uh, social, uh, as possible. And obviously every-everybody is different. There is no one-size-fits-all, uh, approach on investment banking. 37:32 Everybody has their own skills, everybody has their ownComfort zone. But I think it's really important sometimes to get out of there, the-- your, your comfort zone. 37:40 This networking, uh, I know some people, like, really find it, uh, uh, boring, but you can do it in a genuine way as well. 37:46 There are lots of gatherings, there are lots of, uh, conferences we have, and we give them the opportunity. 37:52 And you can also do, uh, you, you can also build, uh, your network with the clients as well, even in your social environment. You go to a birthday party, you go to a wedding, and then you can actually meet people. 38:04 And especially at, uh, younger a-age, uh, we, we encourage it even further. 38:10 Because let's say you are an analyst or you're an associate, you meet the, sort of, uh, the number four, uh, guy in a, in a, in a company, in, um, in, in certain, uh, corporates, right? 38:21 And they are maybe, uh, an analyst in the strategy department. They are twenty-four years old, twenty-seven years old, et cetera. But as you go along your career, they will also go along on their career. 38:33 So in ten years, that, uh, young recruit on a, on company X might be the CFO, might be the CEO. And if you build relationship from such young age, and if that person becomes CEO, that client is, is yours. 38:48 So there is no way you can lose that client because they know you from ten years, fifteen years ago. When somebody is CEO, everybody would call him, everybody would try to, uh, interact with him. 38:59 But if you know them, uh, from when they were, like, uh, relatively junior at their part, they actually trust you because you invested in them, even though they, they did not have a very critical, uh, role on their organization, and they will, uh, respect that. 39:14 It's sort of friendship. Uh, it's, it's never nice-- And also in, in, in business, it's never nice to call a client when you need something from them. 39:23 You also need to call them when you don't need anything, just to check how they are, just to build in the business. Because in investment banks, we work on zone success fee, uh, ratchet fee, ratchets, et cetera. 39:35 Uh, but, uh, sometimes we, we, we work a lot and we don't, uh, get remo-remunerated on this. But we are playing the long game, so of course, uh, at some point, uh, there will be opportunities for us. 39:47 And it's-- I think for us, it's most important thing is to gain the trust of the client. 39:51 And as analysts and associates, if they build relationships from early age, then, uh, in ten years, fifteen years, there could be actually very interesting results. 40:01 Depending on their friends, they could actually get to very senior positions, and, uh, they would have a competitive advantage. They would have a edge with that person on with regards to this. 40:11 So I think this is extremely important. I love that insight, and it really relates as well. 40:14 I think that long-term relationship, the authenticity, the, the trust you talked about, giving people time as you're growing, uh, can lead to big success. 40:22 I, I felt that in my career, you know, being in, in the deal toy space for coming up to thirteen years. When I joined back in two thousand and ten, there were analysts that are now MDs. 40:31 [chuckles] So I, I can see that synergy. So, uh- Yes. That's great. Exactly. And any, any, any tips for the, for the audience on being more effective in networking? Uh, should they be using LinkedIn? 40:42 You touched on conferences. Any tips around that for those maybe wanting to learn how to start that- Yeah.... that approach? Yeah. So I think first of all, I mean, on networking, number one is, uh, the presence. 40:55 So first of all, they need to be there. So whatever the conference, whatever. Let's say there are team drinks, uh, you don't really wanna go, you want to, I don't know, watch your Netflix, et cetera. 41:06 But, uh, to be honest, I mean, you can watch your Netflix, like, video s- any time, like, uh, when you, when you go home or over the weekend. So these drinks or these events, they, they don't take place every day. 41:17 They take place, let's say, every two weeks, uh, every month, uh, every two months, et cetera. So that's an opportunity. First of all, be, be there. And number two, then you can observe. 41:27 You can go with some of your friends so that you feel, uh, safer. You can be in a group of environment. It's not like you go, um, uh, alone and then you are just, uh, there, you, you feel, uh, you feel weird, et cetera. 41:39 And you can find actually angles. Sometimes, like, we talk to clients, and we always talk, uh, about business, right? And, uh, it could get boring at some-- at, at, at certain point. 41:49 But with the, with the client, there, there you could also understand their hobbies. Maybe you don't have common hobbies, but maybe you do. 41:55 So when you talk about, let's say, uh, sports, like you mentioned Arsenal, I have a client who is a big Arsenal fan. Uh, he was very worried about the Manchester City, uh, competition, et cetera. 42:06 So when you talk about these things, you really, uh, click and it takes you-- Actually, you, you, you, you, you have a bond, uh, with them, and then you can also talk about business. 42:15 It's not only chitchat, but you can, uh, use it as a hook. Uh, you can talk about, like, their family. Most of them, they have, like, uh, children. Uh, some of them are actually art investors. 42:26 Some of them, they love their wine. Some of them, like, they really like, uh, traveling. Yeah. And, um, we are an international firm, so I'm Turkish, uh, myself, so most of my clients, obviously, they go to Turkey. 42:39 We have elections, uh, on Sunday. So, like, there are, uh, lots of interesting topics, and they love to get your, their, your insights. 42:45 So if they tell you, "Look, uh, I'm planning my summer holidays, uh, what do you advise? Uh, I, I'm, I'm thinking about Turkey." Like, you could find many different, uh, angles from your, uh, personal life. 42:57 And also you can listen to their conversation, and you can show interest. Uh, if they, uh, wrote a book or if they gave a speech, you can be prepared. 43:05 So let's say if you have a target audience before a networking event, you can just do some research about that person, that CEO, and you can approach him. 43:14 Like you said that, "Look, I love the, I love the way-- I love that paragraph in your book," or, "I love, um, your, like, um, views about, uh, X, Y, Z, uh, on the recent, um, podcast or, uh, on the recent, uh, speech that you gave." 43:29 And you can, um, uh, find an angle. And you would be surprised. 43:33 The people, uh, would be actually extremely appro-- Even some people who look like robots, uh, o-outside, they would be actually quite, uh, genuine and, like, they could be quite, uh, approachable, uh, when you talk to them. 43:46 So I think breaking that ice and justGet out-- getting out of your comfort zone, uh, being confident is extremely important. 43:54 Confidence is really key on investment banking because after all, uh, we are selling, yeah, image, and you see that like Jamie Dimon is extremely, uh, confident. 44:04 Uh, and when you are younger, of course, you have, uh, certain maybe you are anxious, you are nervous. But as you, uh, practice, then, uh, it really gives you confidence. I mean, 44:15 uh, unfortunately, of course, Kobe Bryant is, uh, one of my favorite, uh, basketball players, Michael Jordan as well. 44:20 He was saying that Kobe Bryant, like they were asking him, "How were you so successful at the, at clutch time," right? 44:27 So you were hitting those threes or, um, jumpers, and he was saying that, "Look, I practiced this almost thousands of times during my, uh, practices, so given that I practice so much, it gives me confidence." 44:39 So for, for you as- I mean, for certain people, if it is not natural networking or like talking to people, you can just, uh, maybe, uh, practice, uh, with your friends. So I think practice really makes it perfect. 44:50 So when we go to a big pitch, uh, as an investment bank, let's say a beauty parade, et cetera, we practice so many times internally and, uh, the pitch, uh, when, when you practice, uh, so many times when you rehearse, it's actually much more successful for the ones where you improvise, and clients really see it. 45:09 I think practice, uh, never goes wrong, for sure. Yeah. I agree. I couldn't agree more. 45:14 I think y- unless you practice, you don't get the confidence, and the confidence is so key, especially when you want to portray what the, the work that you're doing for your clients. 45:22 And again, couldn't agree more with that personal touch, building that personal connection, finding the things that touch those you want to build a relationship with. So yeah, again, thanks so much for sharing that. 45:31 We've talked quite a bit about analysts and associates. VPs are those nearest to moving into the director and the managing director roles. Um, for VPs listening in today- Yeah... 45:41 who are looking to take that step into the managing director area, what advice would you give to them to be successful? Yeah. 45:47 So first of all, for VPs, EDs, I mean, there are different, uh, uh, titles across the- across, uh, the investment banks. 45:55 But first of all, congratulations to them because they already survived the tough years on investment banking. They have been at the firm- [chuckles]... uh, for more than, uh, six, uh, six years, eight years, et cetera. 46:07 So I think, um, that, that part is behind them because they worked a lot. They still- they will still work a lot, but of course not, uh, uh, as much. 46:16 And I think for VPs, uh, it-- they already proved themselves with regards to their attention to detail, technical skills, uh, productivity, so now it is more about the clients. So from VP level, we really want to see... 46:31 I mean, they don't need to be the first call from a CEO, they don't need to be the first call from a CFO, uh, or they, they don't need to be like in the, uh, they don't, they don't need to know all the, uh, details of a client's strategy. 46:45 But at least they need to show that they can build rapport with, uh, with key clients, and, uh, they have, uh, future potential, uh, to become, uh, client-facing, uh, bankers. 46:57 Because after all, it's a client business, so I think, yeah, it's really important for them to participate in client meetings to get insights, uh, from clients and to inform internally or to-- and to come up with ideas as well. 47:11 So if you only focus on your work, your project, you are a good execution banker, but you also need to originate as well. And how do you originate? You originate, one, with relationship, and two, with ideas. 47:23 So if you present these ideas, and if you come up with these ideas. So never, uh... You can always punch above your weight. So even as a VP, it doesn't, uh, hurt, uh, to, uh, to act as an, uh, as, as an MD. 47:38 Of course, I mean, you can coordinate with your MD, you can get guidance, but, uh, you can think like an MD. 47:44 And that, that also shows other people that this guy, this, this person could, uh, actually become, uh, an MD as well in future because you need to give that, uh, potential. 47:55 We always review the top talent and, uh, we-- there, there is always an idea of who really has a great, um, uh, potential, uh, to become, uh, become an MD. 48:06 So I think getting close to c- uh, clients, building your network, and, uh, c- creating, like c-coming up with interesting ideas, uh, to pitch, uh, to clients, uh, and also to provide like really the best service is, is really important. 48:23 It is, it is actually quite, uh, fascinating. I think VP, because you are not really an analyst, an associate, you are not MD, you are just in the middle and you need to coordinate on the analysis. It's not an easy job. 48:34 Uh, but the ones who are successful, they would have a really great potential in their careers. And, um, and people come and go in this business as well, so you never know. I think platform is really important. 48:46 In my career, so of course, given that I'm Turkish, I always cover Turkey. 48:51 But, uh, uh, my boss at the time, he also, uh, introduced me to Middle Eastern clients, and given that it's, uh, there is certain proximity culturally, it's not different, uh, I actually picked up the, the Middle Eastern client from VP level. 49:05 And then also on the credit management services once, uh, again, my boss called me. 49:09 They needed some, um, uh, safe payer offense or to cover certain European clients on credit management services, debt purchasing, debt servicing. 49:18 Uh, I actually took this opportunity because I was always focusing on emerging markets. 49:23 I wanted to expand, uh, my res- my, uh, experience on the European clients as well and on some-- o-on a niche sector where you have like high leverage, where you have high, uh, high-yield bonds, and I, I took that opportunity. 49:37 So for VPs, and, and I was a VP at the time, and it helped me, uh, on, on my career future with regards to, uh, more diversified experience. 49:45 And I also hedged myself because on emerging markets, you might not also have like always strong, uh, business support because it's, a-after all, it's emerging by definition, and it's not as developed as US or Europe. 49:56 So you could also like hedge yourself, and I think platform is extremely important. But in order to get this platform, you need to, uh, show, uh, uh, your, your potential as well. 50:06 And maybe your workload will increase, but it will, uh, pay off. So after all, uh, like everything in life, there is risk and reward, so you need to just assess the risk and, uh, focus on the reward. 50:17 And at the end, uh, I think the system is, uh, rather fair.Love it. And again, I think, uh, for those VPs, as you said, getting closer to the clients. 50:26 Uh, I'm a big believer in playing the role before you assume it, before you, uh, you attain it, uh, so to speak. So again, that, that speaks to me. Yeah. 50:34 And again, I think, um, I've heard from other leaders, we know that the investment banking industry has fluctuations, so diversifying, having other options, I think, uh, makes sense as well. 50:43 Uh, is there something that's particularly helped you grow and develop as a leader? Um, training, a podcast, books. Is there something that really has helped you develop your skills? 50:54 I think, uh, the most important part is observation, because the thing is, you are exposed to such high-profile leaders across the, across the world, so you can see certain chairmen, certain clients who really resonate well with you, like you are really impressed, uh, by them, and you observe them in a meeting. 51:12 What do they say? How do they, uh, say it? Also internally as well, uh, within the bank, you have certain, um, uh, senior leaders you can really look up to, and, uh, you need to observe, observe them really well. Mm. 51:25 And once you observe, of course, you are yourself, so you cannot imitate anyone, but at least you learn. So you have your strengths. Your strengths are, I think, done. 51:33 And then with regards to your weaknesses, you can try to improve it, you observe. And I think reading is really important. So as, as, as Jamie Dimon, he reads a lot, like I try to read a lot as well. 51:44 Uh, so I have, uh, you, you can have subscriptions to all these, uh, leading, um, news portals. Uh, you can read, uh, research reports or, or books because the world is changing. 51:55 The investment banking is also not the same, uh, compared to fifteen years ago. Now we have these video conferences, we have these podcasts, we have AI. Uh, so you can actually learn, uh, lots of new things. 52:07 And, um, you also talk to many different people. So even like I, I join certain interviews with younger generation and sometimes actually I learn from them. The more you learn, you know that like the less, uh, you know. 52:20 So there is no, uh, limit, uh, to that. So I think, uh, that really helps. 52:25 And, uh, I think the humility is, is really important because we have seen in the world, across the business world, you see that sometimes people rise quite fast. 52:34 But if they are not humble, if they, they don't show humility, the, the decline can also be quite fast as well. So you really need to, uh, look into it. I think consensus, uh, leadership is also like i-important. 52:47 Like you need to talk to other people. You always need to check in with your team because it's also a human business. You don't know what other people are going through. 52:55 They might have certain, uh, personal, uh, um, issues. So you really need to, I think, give them, uh, presence. And I think taking, uh, vacation once in a while is also important to, uh, uh, refresh, uh, your, your mind. 53:09 I think in investment banking, unfortunately, it's quite a heavy workload, but, um, it, it improved a lot. I think over the last fifteen years, work-life balance, uh, has, uh, clearly, uh, improved. 53:21 During pandemic, it was quite tough because, uh, there was a lot of like business activity. So now, uh, you see the markets, I think, uh, the activity actually slowed down, but, uh, it will, uh, pick up again. 53:33 It's, it's inevitable. And I think, yeah, another advice, uh, for the, for the VPs especially is they need to also have a view on the macro, uh, outlook as well. 53:45 So that's extremely important and also on the, on the geographical side because that would affect their career. So the world GDP growth was around three point four percent last year. 53:55 It's declining this year around two point eight percent. And on advanced economies, it's almost like one point three percent. So there is still, uh, growth, but on the other side, there are, uh, struggling economies too. 54:07 So they need to see the risks and where there could be business opportunities. So debt to GDP levels in Italy is like very high, for example, almost one hundred and fifty percent. 54:17 In Europe, again, very high level of, uh, debt. The demographics are not really favorable. So like you need to really consider this. Okay, what does this mean for future, uh, sectors? Like which sectors will be winners? 54:29 AI is coming. Which sectors will be losers? So you need to position yourself based on, especially when you are twenty-three years old, the world will change a lot in ten years, twenty years. 54:40 So if you start positioning yourself for the winning segments, winning geographies, then, uh, that would, uh, help you as well. And you also need to analyze the, uh, the, the macro environment, the Fed. 54:52 Like I always, uh, listen to, for example, the Fed meetings, because last year in March, the interest rates were zero. Now it's, uh, five to five point twenty-five, uh, percent, the Fed policy rate. 55:03 So in one year, we have seen five percent increase. So there's such a unprecedented like steep rate rise, and that has impact on tech companies, the valuations. That has impact on, uh, um, the, the economy. 55:17 So once you actually apply for jobs, you always need to see this type of like the, the, the impact of this on valuation, on the financials, because after all, it affects you. 55:28 I think what I see is in most of the young graduates, they just look at, uh, it on a very, uh, narrow, um, way, like but if you look into overall, uh, macro environment, you can actually make a difference. 55:40 It's-- You-- Nobody has crystal ball, but you could actually anticipate certain generational change. Like Jeff Bezos, for example, he saw-- he has this, uh, famous video. 55:49 He saw the opportunity and growth on e-commerce, and he started with books because it was like easier to sell, but then, uh, he created Amazon. 55:57 So I think this type of, uh, visionary thinking for ten, twenty years could make a difference. So really looking at that and then position yourself accordingly in, in the area that potentially sees the growth. 56:08 Um, you touched on AI. There, there's so much still in this episode I think we could unpack, but we're running out of time. So I think I'm gonna move, uh- Sure... a couple of quick questions around culture. 56:19 So what's the one thing you'd like to see change most in investment banking culture?So I think in investment banking culture, it changed a lot over the last, uh, fifteen years and, uh, in a good way as well. 56:32 So I think there is, uh, a lot of focus now, uh, with regards to analyst associates, uh, whether they are happy, whether they are pleased, like the work-life balance. So I think, uh, that really, uh, changed a lot. 56:45 I think training, uh, activities, as I mentioned, this has been a key focus as well, but there is still, uh, room for improvement, I think, uh, everywhere. 56:54 So I think on with regards to training, uh, it is extremely important. Uh, we have a very fast-paced, uh, business environment, so you don't really have a lot of, uh, free time, especially for analysts. 57:07 But I think, uh, we can clearly, uh, create time, uh, maybe sometimes like over the, uh, over the weekends or even like, um, uh, certain, uh, idle time, like on the off sites. 57:19 And there are, uh, there are actually-- there is, there is progress, uh, on this front because when I talk to analysts, I really see, uh, appetite for them like to, to learn more. 57:31 And if you give them the opportunity, they would, uh, love it. Uh, again, uh, I think, uh, with regards to technology, we try to utilize it as much as we can. 57:41 We invest a lot, uh, in, uh, in technology and, uh, this could also make, uh, analysts', uh, lives easier because some of-- sometimes, like we go see a client, we need a profile of that company. 57:53 So if you automate that, uh, profile creation, and especially AI, that would be a- clearly a part. So this is now-- this is quite, uh... 58:02 These are still early times, but, uh, with regards to your financial analysis, with regards to your merger impact, accretion, dilution, capital impact, some technical analysis, if you have the raw data right and the coding right, I think you can easily, uh, uh, conduct this type of analysis. 58:19 That doesn't mean that the analyst jobs would be redundant if we have those type of analysis, uh, uh, with, with AI. 58:27 But still, they need to ensure that the, the analysis is accurate because, uh, after all, again, the codes are written by, um, uh, by, by human beings. 58:36 And, uh, you need to see that it is relevant for the client because there is also qualitative, uh, aspects of our job and quantitative aspects. 58:45 So I think in the future the work-life balance, uh, will continue to, to improve, but their, uh, uh, relevance to analysts, associates or, or VPs, MDs, like relevance will still be important because this is actually a quite, uh, interesting business on the strategic advice front. 59:02 So I think we can use technology, we can adopt technology even, uh, uh, better, uh, in our core business, and the clients would clearly appreciate it. And as we transition from generation to generation, right? 59:14 So every, every generation, I think the current generation- Mm-hmm... will be extremely, uh, sensitive on the usage of, uh, technology, and they would prefer it. 59:22 And if they don't use it, of course, you could lose market share. Definitely. And again, I think AI is so new and there's still a lot to unpack there, but 59:29 you echo similar things to what I've heard from other leaders in terms of how it could impact the role, uh, for the better. You talked a lot about hiring and being involved in the interview process. 59:39 Uh, we talked about the kind of skills required, but, uh, on the analyst and associate side. 59:44 But when they're coming to interview on the cultural side, what's the characteristics that you're looking for from these, these, uh, youngsters? 59:51 So I think, yeah, I think everybody has their own, uh, interviewing, uh, style of course, but culturally, uh, we are really looking for young, uh, candidates who know, like, what they want from, from their job. 1:00:03 And we always like-- I mean, we, we have actually quite a bit of tendency to hire from like internships. So we hire interns. If they are successful, they become, uh, analysts. We have external hiring as well. 1:00:16 So, but I think in terms of culture, it's really important to fit into JPMorgan, uh, uh, culture. It's generally a quite like humble environment. Uh, humility is really, uh, important, uh, from, uh, top-down. 1:00:29 So you don't see like these aggressive people in, as you see in, in movies. Uh, so I think people, uh, really work, uh, work well. 1:00:37 So it's like similar to a sports team, like a well-functioning football team or basketball team, right? So it's a team, uh, environment, so we want to work, uh, as a team. 1:00:46 So I think even though someone is like extremely bright, if you don't feel that they are a good team player, uh, then, uh, we could struggle obviously on our, uh, decision. And we also look into the potential. 1:00:59 So whenever I hire someone, even if they don't know certain details on corporate finance, investment banking, on FIG, if I see that they have the potential to learn and they have appetite, uh, they have like they are eager to learn, then that's actually a quite, uh, strong attribute for us, uh, to, to hire them. 1:01:18 And, uh, I also like personally, I also check their hobbies as well. Uh, it doesn't matter what it is, but like if they have passion for something, uh, it could be team sports, it could be something else. 1:01:29 I think, yeah, you, you also want some sort of personality for that person rather than only focusing on investment banking, only focusing on finance. 1:01:37 So you need to have that human, uh, feeling, extracurricular activities. We look and we have some technical questions, we have some career, uh, related questions. 1:01:45 So it's like, uh, quite standard, but everybody has their own, uh, uh, style. But I think preparation is really key. 1:01:52 So if you go to an interview and if I ask why investment banking, and if you don't really have a good answer or if I ask why JPMorgan, and if you don't know, uh, what JPMorgan is, you just, uh, you just want to get a job, that doesn't really, uh, reflect well on your, uh, motivation. 1:02:09 Definitely. Thanks for the advice, and I'm sure the audience will take that on board. I can't believe we're coming to the end of the show. Uh, we've gone over. 1:02:16 I mean, I feel there's so much more we could have discussed and got into, so, uh, I think we'll have to have you back for series two, Gökhan, so we can really unpack some other topics. 1:02:24 How do those listening today, uh, get more of you? How do they best connect with you?So I think, uh, yeah, I mean, I have a LinkedIn account, of course. Uh, I think, uh, my email is there as well. 1:02:36 Uh, so I mean, we don't use my-- much of social media, uh, especially like, uh, we are-- I think I'm still from like old generation, but I think LinkedIn, email is a, is a good way to connect. 1:02:47 Uh, I have coffees with many, um, uh, young students or like the, the, from, from like other industries as well who like to move into investment banking. And during those coffee chats, I also learn from them. 1:02:59 It's not, uh, one way, and I would love to share my experiences. So exactly, please feel free to reach out to me via email or, uh, by LinkedIn. And thank you for this, Pete. 1:03:10 I think it was really enjoyable for me as well. Uh, my first, uh, podcast, but, uh, it's really, I think, an interesting way to, to communicate, uh, with many, many people. And, uh, thank you for your, uh, questions. 1:03:23 Some of them were tough, but [chuckles] thank you for the insightful discussion. No, I didn't go too tough on you. [laughs] But yeah, again, uh, thanks so much. Uh, I will... 1:03:30 Uh, uh, I'm a big believer that successful leaders are readers, and I know you are as well from, from a lot of today's comments. I will ask you for some extra resources to put in the notes of the show, uh, for the team. 1:03:42 Sure. Uh, other than that, I've really enjoyed the conversation, so thanks so much for your time. I appreciate how busy your schedule is. I know this week's been a big week with a lot of the CEOs and, uh, in town. 1:03:52 So, um, super excited to listen back, actually, and listen to the insights you've shared. Uh, I'm sure there'll be a lot to take away. So thanks very much and, uh, best of luck for those transactions in Q2, as always. 1:04:04 Thank you, Pete. Stay in touch. Take care. [outro music] Thanks for joining me today for the Investment Banking Leaders Podcast. 1:04:16 Today's episode was brought to you by Outram, the global leaders in commemorating your most important transactions with a meaningful deal toy. 1:04:23 So if you have a successful deal to celebrate, hit me up or the Outram team at outram.com to get your design started. 1:04:29 I really enjoyed chatting with Gokhan and hearing his many insights on how to succeed in the investment banking industry. 1:04:35 I loved his view that successful deals are made through authenticity, trust, understanding the stakeholders' needs and goals, but also by adapting, uh, to meet roadblocks and ensuring you have a strong, cohesive team around you. 1:04:48 He shared that the keys to success for analysts and associates is to be organized, take notes, be proactive, and have an exceptional attention to detail. 1:04:56 He coupled this with listening and observing other successful leaders, both internally and externally, and how this helps you grow at a faster rate. 1:05:04 I loved his take that building relationships at your level now fosters success in the future, 'cause as they grow and you grow, the relationships will pay back when everyone reaches more senior positions. 1:05:14 There was so much more we could have covered. I think we'll have to have Gokhan back for series two. 1:05:19 I hope you enjoyed the episode and have a ton of takeaways, and join me again for the next discussion with another successful investment banking leader. Until then, you can find us where all great podcasts live. 1:05:30 Please follow our podcast page, share with those interested, and until next time, best of luck with your transactions. [outro music]
